What if America Followed the Rules?
Summary
Ezra Klein interviews Linda Kintzler about the crisis facing international law, sparked by the ICC’s arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu. They explore the tension between idealistic rules and political reality, contrasting Trump’s unilateralism with a Democratic push to restore the rules-based order. The discussion highlights how international law serves as both a moral framework and a tool of power, questioning its ability to prevent atrocities or provide meaningful accountability in conflicts like Gaza and Ukraine.
Topics discussed
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Introduction: The potential of international law for renewal
ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu and US political rhetoric
Defining international law: Criminal vs. broader systems
Biden's 'rules-based order' and its fading commitment
Why Israel? Comparing ICC focus on Gaza vs. other conflicts
Can following rules fix US foreign policy mistakes?
The argument for restraint: Avoiding unilateral aggression
Historical context: 90s optimism and the Kosovo intervention
International law as a heroic but flawed endeavor
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How legality can legitimize atrocities and military targets
Obama's Nobel speech: Nonviolence vs. necessary force
US hegemony, Iran, and the campaign to dismantle the ICC
US hostility to ICC: Sanctions and selective support
Using international law to serve power and Machtpolitik
Trump's surplus power vs. subordination to international law
China's rise and a territorial vision of international rules
Post-American order: Sovereignty and the failure of enforcement
Proceduralism, liberalism, and the limits of legalism
Genocide rulings, historical memory, and meaning in Gaza
The symbolic value of ICJ rulings and Democratic party splits
International law as a tragic field and US complicity
Ceasefires vs. lasting settlements in a multipolar world
Regenerating moral imagination in international law
Reparative politics and supporting international institutions
Book recommendations on rupture, red lines, and fiction
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